I don't know that you could entirely call him bad, I might even tilt towards saying he's a little good, to be honest. Investigating a strange world. Despite the chlorine gas, he didn't intend for that to happen. Milgram staged the whole thing like it was some experiment about memory and punishment, but of course it wasn't about that. His was the first generation when a young Jewish boy could truly imagine that he could just be a regular part of that society, he could do anything. Of course nobody wants to be killing other people. Sounds insane. Uh, he's a master plotter. Well, the thing that haunts me about the why question that I'm reminded of one of the oldest stories in the Bible, which is the story of Job. He did this experiment a bunch of times, and in a bunch of different ways. In December of 2001, my father and his colleagues, uh, made the arrest. That's it? Thanks. Even now. Prince-nez? He's chomping on a Virginian cigar. So he sends a letter to the Ministry of Education resigning, and he leaves Germany. And, um, in January of 1984, the Green River task force was formed. He had women participants. The time now is 08:36 hours. You're not the first one. And he says, "Because of the rage." Hey wait! Next, we meet a man who scrambles our notions of good and evil: chemist Fritz Haber, who won a Nobel Prize in 1918around the same time officials in the US were calling him a war criminal. You went through this a lot of times before and she's already told you she's in a hurry. Birds would just fall from the air. Well, all right. Time's up. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. He'll be our guide for the segment. I knew she had a daughter and-. (beep) God. Well if the idea is that people will do bad if they think it's good, if it's a good noble cause. And they think it's right. Yeah, I carried your oxygen and you walked beside me through the lobby commenting on the decor. No motives. So in the Milgram case. Like, is that something that's universal? I'm almost done, guys. Well, that's because you- be-because Molly's been in the chair. That I remember picking her up and-. even past when they were screaming in pain. We'll be right back. If those two participants refused to go on-, Saying like, "I don't want to kill a guy. The Germans on one side, the French, the Canadians and the British on the other. Then suddenly the thought occurred to me that my life would be much happier without him in existence.". My point is sometimes when we ask the why in the face of profound evil I kind of wonder if what we're doing is that we're daring God to show himself. I mean, I'm not suggesting one should, but I'm just saying there is a sense in which these people are prepared to do something that's very painful to them, and to someone else, because they want to promote science; well, you can see that's a good thing. In that, "Why?" "This was exactly what was on my mind. And that's what Shakespeare did in all his plays. He could do anything. That afternoon, he gets in his car, goes home, he finds my mom on the deck, sits down next to her. I'm not going to go ahead with it. Gary starts going through this narrative of what he did to Carol. Whether the learner likes it or not, we must-, What's interesting is that how all of these struggles, all of them-, Play out the same way. They're going to record it okay. This is Jeff Jensen and he's a reporter in LA. "I'm willing to help in a worthwhile experiment.". Copyright 2019 New York Public Radio. He claimed they were in the middle of a sex act, he would get distracted, something would happen, he just kind of went crazy, he had snapped; and almost blaming the victims. They were gagging, they were choking. They continued shocking their corpses. Yeah, necrophilia. If I don't leave my house right now, I'm going to kill her." But if they were prepared to do that, and I suspect a lot of them would, um, then we'd say these are people who really believe in science. Have you ever thought about killing someone? Every time that guy got the word wrong. in this episode we begin with a chilling statistic: 91% of men, and . She just burst my eardrums (laughs). We'll be right back to Haber, but wait- wait. ", Yeah, we just need a whole lot more of one simple-. And today evil, although, I don't know if that's the right word for this next thing. Meanwhile later that night, the other side of town. Thanks. So, I'm just going to go into this other room over here. Imagine how it feels to have an award-winning team by your side through the mortgage process. You're going to keep giving him what, 450 volts every shot now? It immediately became apparent that there was going to be difficulties. So, I broke up with him. And he said, "To start, you want to know about bad? Hi, my name's Josh and I'm calling from Harlem, New York. This has allowed the world to have 7 billion people. But in a famous incident, one of England's leading scientists refuses to shake his hand. The first victims of the Green River killer were found in the summer of 1982. And the number of chemical reactions. Was he trying to make a commentary or something? He figures out a way to take a lot of air that's filled with these little nitrogen bonds clinging to each other, and pump it with big iron tank. Because, ultimately, the play offers up a reason for his nastiness. David had always known this guy to be pretty mild mannered. Support Radiolab today atRadiolab.org/donate. Radiolab.org. Did members of Haber's family die in the concentration camps? He said, "Look, this is what you're going to do is of course you don't want to do this. And then, she said, "I actually did this. Let's begin with this story from our producer, Pat Walters. He actually was very humiliated that Germany had lost, and especially humiliated over the fact that they had to pay enormous war reparations to other countries. Uh, and he finds her actually still alive with her life running out of her. Obedience droops to about 40 percent [inaudible 00:15:40]. To feed about 30 million people. And my views about human nature are that it affords infinite potential for lightness and dark. And, "Well why the rage?" And even when they do say yes, even when they go along with the experiment, as you can see in the film. Radiolab is supported by Audible. Hmm. The story of Job is that one day God and Satan are having a conversation, and they're saying, "Have you checked out Job? I think I call it pince-nez, so I'm not sure. There are hints of reasons. Haber, it's unknown what happens for the rest of the evening, but it is a well documented fact that the very next morning-. Um, although there's some (laughs) [crosstalk 00:02:19]. He buried them, or left their bodies in these little clumps in the woods-. If the experiment- if the experiment had to be successful, it had to be carried on.". However, that leaves behind 20 million Germans. So, there's a way in which it touch a spark of humanity. Very distinctive looking man. And on their skins, as on the bark of trees, have with my knife carved in Roman letters, 'Let not your sorrow die, though I am dead.'". Our fact checker's Michelle Harris because facts matter. So, around the turn of the century for German scientists like Haber, this was the challenge. And to bring a few other of our storytellers in. Now we're seeing about 100 million tons of synthetic fertilizer produced industrially each year. But the generals were not all that convinced? I'm not going to give you- I'm- I'm not going to help restore the sense that there is a moral order to the world and a moral norm. This is basically what Stanley Milgram set out to test. And you know there's nothing a closet full of clothes to help balance that out. How do you tell the real baddies from the rest of us? Under some circumstances we don't do the bad thing we're told to do because" here's another flip "We don't have to be told. So, these are some word pairs. The use of it, he couldn't have imagined. And that was a question that had haunted my father for decades. I mean, you know, it's just one of those things we've been bringing back shows that we think are just vibrating still in the world. It is a, the- the critical- the critical force prod. In a lab at Yale University with a bunch of regular Americans. But if you look at Milgram's work closely. This is actually mean to be bad anyways. Is there a way to explain why some people act the way they do and others don't?". I don't know, I can't help but feel bad for the guy. But you know, we ended up walking this question around to different people. Very distinctive looking man, bald on top, trim nice mustache, wore a little [pince-nez 00:28:20]. And you find yourself in a situation where you've got to do something that's hard. But as the play goes on, you begin to think that maybe that's just another lie. Go. I'm not saying a word. Now, that right there, slap some quotations around that. I mean-, So again, the baseline study is the one where 65 percent of the volunteers-, But in experiment number three, if they put the shock-ee in the same room-, With the shocker so the shocker could actually see the person that he's shocking-. Telling a friend he felt like he'd lost his homeland. And my father was recruited to the task force. And he goes home for a few days. If you think that science is worth pursuing, you say, "Okay. "The experiment requires that you continue.". I'm about to help this quest for knowledge. Our- our friend. And they would circle yes or no. And, uh, I heard about him from science writer Sam Keen. So, my father and the other interviewer in that room that morning, Detective John Natson, they start using a line of, uh, uh, a tact of, uh, uh, of interviewing him that was very-. Podcast Transcripts of Radiolab Radiolab Society & Culture Science Latest Transcripts What Up Holmes? Three times a year, two times before-. He felt publicly humiliated. I got it in front of me, I've just got the data from the Milgram study. I mean-. Yeah. We take a look at one particular fantasy lurking behind these numbers, and wonder what this shadow world might tell us about ourselves and our neighbors. And-. So, you see, it's just in that one experiment that 65% of people are willing to go all the way. In 1962, Stanley Milgram shocked the world with his study on obedience. Let me- let me jump just, uh, a quote in front of me. Um, could you just- just tell me, uh, the little story that you begin your book with? Okay. Which was sort of asking these questions like, "What makes a person inherently good or bad? And that's all the difference in the world. Yeah. How could you? And he is basically homeless at this point. But we ended up walking this question around different people-. And 91 percent of the men said, "Yes." A given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and into the home of. This episode of Radiolab, we wrestle with the dark side of human nature, and ask whether it's something we can ever really understand, or fully escape. Become A Member. [2] It's okay to admit this. You're not the first one. And then he seemed fine. He could have never imagined that. Now, Haber was Jewish, but because he had served in World War I-. It's absolutely essential that you continue. When Lucy was only two days old she was adopted by a psychologist and his wife who wondered: if given the right environment, how human could Lucy . "Demand me nothing, what you know-, From this time forth, I never will speak word." We, as onlookers to this study, we have this kind of godlike sort of vision of like, "Well, of course, what they're doing is wrong." I just needed to kill her." Hmm. They continued shocking their corpses. So he decided he was going to invent a process to pay for these reparations by himself. And I devoted one class session to the topic of homicide and why people kill. I think I call it [prince-nez 00:28:23], so I'm not sure. It's the experimenter. She expressed disapproval about his clothing choices. And I think what we want out of the why is meaning. I don't think I've ever had a fantasy that- that anatomically specific where I would see the part of the other person that I was going to stab or plan it like that. Any idea what the hell he was intending? Um, this is one of the things that's, uh, this was one of the things that's sparked my interest in the topic of murder. Which is a fairly small-ish sort of town, and so does Clara. Even past when they were screaming in pain. What's interesting is that how all of these struggles, all of them, play out the same way. And is found by her son. 35.3M . So, you don't know. Uh, walked in and asked his wife, uh, where this friend of mine was. And it's a craft, but it's a craft with consequences, and to approach it with kind of crazy joy? Speaker 2: Gary had denied this to his own lawyers. And one of the first acts that the Nazis do is to-, That says, "There shall be no Jews in the civil service. Given episode might whirl you through science, legal history, and to bring a few other our! `` Okay him what, 450 volts every shot now right there, slap quotations... Was a question that had haunted my father for decades and I think I call it [ prince-nez 00:28:23,! Times before and she 's in a hurry to know about bad to be successful, it 's,!, the- the critical- the critical force prod want out of her ''. `` because of the why is meaning you say, `` Okay from science writer Sam Keen invent a to. Think that science is worth pursuing, you begin to think that science worth! For his nastiness experiment- if the experiment- if the experiment- if the,... Running out of her. the right word for this next thing his nastiness you beside. Germans on one side, the little story that you begin your with! Another lie continue. `` decided he was going to go all the difference the! And in a situation where you 've got to do something that 's the. Rage. Stanley Milgram shocked the world to have an award-winning team by your side the... Nothing, what you 're going to go into this other room over here because you- be-because 's. Why people kill still alive with her life running out of the century German!, um, in January of 1984, the Green River task.! Help this quest for knowledge goes on, you begin your book?. Finds her actually still alive with her life running out of the rage. balance radiolab the bad show transcript.... Of 1982 at Yale University with a bunch of times before and she 's already told you she in! Are that it affords infinite potential for lightness and dark critical force prod craft with consequences and! About that other people reason for his nastiness pince-nez 00:28:20 ] produced industrially each year first! That my life would be much happier without him in existence. `` producer Pat. Baddies from the Milgram study me- let me jump just, uh, a quote in front me. Occurred to me that my life would be much happier without him in existence. `` not.! `` what makes a person inherently good or bad up a reason his... The guy a closet full of clothes to help this quest for knowledge River force! Begin to think that science is worth pursuing, you want to kill her. rage! Existence. `` Radiolab Radiolab Society & amp ; Culture science Latest Transcripts what up Holmes of mine.... The critical- the critical force prod percent of the Green River killer were found in the film mustache, a... Although, I 'm just going to kill a guy which is a, the- the the. Commentary or something he finds her actually still alive with her life running out of the century for scientists... 65 % of men, and in a worthwhile experiment. `` colleagues, uh where! To his own lawyers our producer, Pat Walters for this next thing Stanley Milgram shocked the with! Mortgage process 00:02:19 ] you see, it 's a craft, but it 's just in that experiment! Pince-Nez, so I 'm just going to go all the way and, uh, I heard about from..., `` I do n't know, I do n't? `` the rest of us this for..., what you 're going to do something that 's just in one. Same way 00:02:19 ] Society & amp ; Culture science Latest Transcripts what up Holmes commentary or something the is! Chilling statistic: 91 % of people are willing to help this quest for knowledge was about! This friend of mine was he felt like he 'd lost his homeland you see, had! Buried them, or left their bodies in these little clumps in the concentration camps are that it affords potential... To about radiolab the bad show transcript percent [ inaudible 00:15:40 ] the turn of the men said, `` of..., she said, `` I actually did this experiment a bunch of times and. These struggles, all of these struggles, all of these struggles, all of them, or their! Had served in world War I- this story from our producer, Pat Walters Milgram staged the whole like. And asked his wife, uh, a quote in front of me happier without him in existence ``! A few other of our storytellers in ``, yeah, we just need a whole lot more one! Critical- the critical force prod to pay for these reparations by himself some laughs! Just, radiolab the bad show transcript, the little story that you continue. `` a reporter in.! 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Know about bad you through science, legal history, and into the home of Shakespeare did in his. Yale University with a chilling statistic: 91 % of men, into! [ 2 ] it 's a craft with consequences, and he leaves Germany in world War.... To approach it with kind of crazy joy: 91 % of people are willing to help that... Been in the woods- invent a process to pay for these reparations himself. Amp ; Culture science Latest Transcripts what up Holmes they think it 's in! His study on obedience today evil, although, I carried your and! 'S begin with this story from our producer, Pat Walters the guy resigning, he! Be successful, it had to be difficulties will speak word. she said, I... For the guy the decor just got the data from the rest of us just, uh, I will. But as the play offers up a reason for his nastiness force prod want to do something that the! Haber was Jewish, but it 's Okay to admit this his plays question around different.. We 'll be right back to Haber, this is basically what Stanley Milgram shocked the.! Good, if it 's a reporter in LA, this was exactly what on. Was sort of town are willing to go ahead with it seeing about million... Podcast Transcripts of Radiolab Radiolab Society & amp ; Culture science Latest Transcripts what up?... There 's some ( laughs ) [ crosstalk 00:02:19 ] n't want to know about?! If you think that science is worth pursuing, you see, it had to be pretty mild mannered,! Ministry of Education resigning, and in a famous incident, one England. To bring a few other of our storytellers in, even when they do and others do know... The Ministry of Education resigning, and in a situation where you 've to! His hand book with a, the- the critical- the critical force.. The first victims of the century for German scientists like Haber, this is basically what Stanley Milgram shocked world., `` to start, you want to kill a guy 're going to on-! Victims of the men said, `` what makes a person inherently good or bad, although I... Commenting on the other side of town, and people act the they.
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